I have read all of the previous posts on this topic with much interest and I find that I agree with almost all of them. I'm sorry but I don't think that most NF CG's need electric, sewer, hook-ups, dumpstations, etc. in that I feel that the majority of NF CG users are there for the quiet, peaceful atmosphere and are either tent campers or are fully self-contained.

Water - Yes; More space between campsites - Yes; Good Bear-Proof Containers or Lockers (in bear country) - Yes; Pleasent/Friendly and Knowagble Hosts/Mgr's. - Yes; Logical & Senseable Rules that are enforced - Yes; A shelter or sun-shade of some type (see Dead Horse Point State Park in UT or Lees Ferry CG in AZ for example) - Yes

Most of all we need more camper who care about the forests, parks, ect. and don't trash them and who hve some consideration for the other campers.

I could go on for some time but you all get the idea.

Ditto from here. Question for you - Do you think there is a connection between a decline in the number of "caring" campers and Boy/Girl Scout programs? Suzi

Hi Suzi,

You know I don't have any facts or figures to back up my contention, however, I believe that you are probably correct, however, I also have to say that I don't think that is the only reason. It seems to me that there has been a general breakdown in the populations respect for property, in folks seeming to be way more willing to steal, to destroy, than ever before. I feel that a lot of this is due to the lack of training by parents to their children as to what's right and what's wrong, what's good and what's bad, whats acceptable behavior and what's not. Lack of religious training, kids being babysat by the T.V. rather than loving and caring parents, etc., etc.

When I first started camping 40 odd years ago one could leave all of their equipment sitting out on the table at their campsite, be done all day, come back in the evening and it would all be there. Today, it's hardly safe to walk to the restrooms without some punks ripping you off.

I find this really sad and I don't do very much camping these days because of this type of behavior.

I also note that there are a lot more RVer's in what were formally tent camping areas with the generators going late into the night and a lot more loud obnoxious punks partying all night and keeping everyone else up.

None of which is very condusive to enjoying the great outdoors. Well I have ranted enough so back to you.

I'd like to add, that although all these things are true, the NFS run Campgrounds are among the finest in the country. They're not fancy, but they are generally clean, quiet, and in some of the most marvelous places you could ever want to be. I guess all we can do as individuals is teach our children and (in our case now our grandchildren) the wonders of living in the outdoors. We camp in a fully self contained truck camper with solar panels and live just as quietly as the tent campers and we suffer as much from the generators as they do. I'll also add a pet peeve. Walking through someone's occupied campsite used to be "Verboten". Doesn't seem so anymore.

Sorry if I got a bit off topic there.

I was taught to always announce myself with a "Hello the fire/camp" when approaching another person's campsite. Don't hear that much anymore either.

Personal observation - Bad manners, such as cutting thru a campsite, loud music, and endless generator running, can be found anywhere but it does seem the closer to the Pacific Ocean you get, the more bad behavior you must deal with. I think we should follow camperwest the next time and enjoy our time outdoors. (Reminds of a complaint we got years ago from a woman who was annoyed because she could not sleep with all the "music" the frogs. Oh the quiet of the wilderness.)

Camperwest & Suzi,

You're both right and unfortunately we could go on for paragraph after paragraph about the problems one encounters camping today but I don't think it will be too useful.

Education from whatever source is by far probably the best answer.

Camperwest, please don't think that I'm knocking the NF CG's. I do enjoy them and your right they are some of the best in the country. Unfortunately, the bad guys get to some of the good spots too. And by the way, I don't think that you really got off topic.

On a positive note, there are so many FS CG's that we just continue to visit new ones and from time to time come back to the old ones (negative experiences - as noted above) to see if things have changed.

On a negative note, from my experiences camping over the past 40 years, the experiences noted above have been getting worse for a while and I doubt they will ever get better

Korbe;

You're right, there are a lot of FS CG's so it's not super hard to find some that are still quite, peaceful and enjoyable.

You're also correct that it's highly unlikely that a lot of the problems that have been mentioned in this thread will be changed in the near future if at all. Isn't that sad!

Along with education of the general population I feel that the other single most important aspect to getting our campgrounds back is having valid, intelligent, logical, simple and clear-cut rules and then having the Rangers, Managers, Hosts, Etc. available that can and will enforce them.

Camperwest; Slightly off-topic but I was born and grew up in Seacoast NH until I joined the Navy back in 1956 would be interested in hearing about where you're from. and where you camp.

PM me if your interested in discussing this.

Wise Tioga wrote:

It's also too bad that enforcement would be the way to get our CG's back. I truly wish people as individuals would take personal responsibility of their actions.

Suzi Wrote:

I have not done any camping east of the rockies so I would have to take your word on that one. Do you mean to say that all this time I've been camping in the "wrong" part of the country?

No, not the "wrong" part of the country. There are "bad" campers everywhere. I'm not sure as to the "why" but it just seemed there were more first time campers in California then in other parts of the country. And, as first timers, these campers didn't have as great an understanding of good camping manners and they could be annoying. I imagine you have met some of these campers also.

My point is, in the past, if your parents weren't campers or you weren't part of camping group like the Scouts, then forest rangers and/or campground hosts showed and/or explained how to be a "good" camper. With reductions in staff and such there just doesn't seem to be anyone around to teach the new campers. And this means you and I either have to learn to live it or try to "educate" new campers as to what are good camping manners, primarily through our own actions.

Very well said. I first went camping with my parents when I was a youngster years ago and campground etiquette came naturally. I would wish that new campers could learn from example, rather than from a confrontation. By the way, I really enjoy your site.

I would like to see more Rangers making there rounds through the camping areas more often. Especially in the campgrounds out west. With the advent of people moving from the East to the West over the years. Rude behavior which is passed on to there offspring are giving those of use who were born in the West a bad reputation.

Dan;

With all due respect to you and your family, there really are just as many bad acting, misbehaving, poor mannered people from West of the Rockies as there are from East of them, I'm sorry to say. However you're correct in that we do need more authority in the various campgrounds. Unfortunately!

However, with the economy the way it is I don't think we are going to see any improvement in that area. We all need to do our part to help fix this problem, pick-up after messy campers, try to talk sense and respect into any who will listen, Vol. to be camp hosts, etc.

I agree that some kind of simple sun shelter should be provided at the really open, sunny campgrounds.

As for campers having good manners, it all starts with us. When you have friends and family that have not camped previously, take a moment to teach them the camping rules - e.g. don't walk thru another campsite w/o permission, keep all fires in the fire ring, do a walk thru of the campsite before you leave to pick up anything not natural (even if it was not put down by your campers, etc.). Don't forget to clean out any garbage in the fire ring. I know this sounds basic, but you would be surprised at the number of people that simply do not know.

Suzi, I think you may be on to something with regard to the decline in popularity and participation in the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts. Far too few kids are introduced to the joy of camping by these valuable and structured organizations. Far too many parents work too many hours to spend more than a weekend here and there with their kids in the woods, too, nor do they spend enough time inculcating the Golden Rule. My parents took me camping--for years such trips were our only vacations, primarily because it was cheap and relaxing. I was taught early on that I was not to do anything that I wouldn't want other campers doing to me, and that I should leave the campground in general, and our campsite in particular, as clean as I would want others to leave it for me.

In re: the woman who complained about the frogs. We once went camping with some family friends, boondocking next to a creek. Mary was most decidedly *not* a camper. Well, both clans retired to their respective tents for the night. After about ten minutes or so, we heard: "Doesn't anyone ever shut off that damned water?!?" Hee!